Think Flow Grow Cast mit Tim Boettner
Willkommen zu einem holistischen Verständnis von Gesundheit und dem guten Leben. Ich bin Tim Böttner und mit Think Flow Grow vermittle ich mit meinen Gästen eine Gesundheits- und Lebensphilosophie für die Zukunft, von der dein Herz weiß, dass sie möglich ist. Mit einer Synthese aus moderner Wissenschaft, altbewährter Weisheit und Erfahrung. Enjoy the Ride!
Think Flow Grow Cast mit Tim Boettner
Sensory Wisdom and the Illusion of Separation with Mattew Zoltan | #201
Our senses are the gateway to deeper understanding and intuitive knowledge. In this episode, Matthew Zoltan explores how thinking often creates a sense of separation from our true selves, and why lived experiences hold far greater significance. We dive into the body's role as a vast sensory organ and discuss how developing our senses can lead to better self-understanding. We also question the use of techniques aimed at achieving enlightenment and emphasize the importance of accepting yourself as you are rather than constantly striving for change. By the end of this episode, you'll gain insights on how to live with the facts of life and enhance your well-being by fully embracing your sensations.
In this episode:
- The Body as a Sense Organ: Understanding why our senses are the primary source of information.
- The Problem of Thinking: How thinking can create a sense of separation and disconnection.
- Developing the Senses: How honing our senses leads to deeper understanding and intuition.
- The Role of Words and Thoughts: How they guide awareness but are not the same as lived experience.
- Self-Acceptance: The importance of embracing yourself as you are without seeking external validation.
- Interconnectedness and the Illusion of Separation: Recognizing the interconnectedness of all beings.
This episode provides a comprehensive guide to understanding and embracing the sensory experiences of your body, paving the way to healing and greater self-awareness.
Links
2 more episodes with Mathew:
- Feel to Heal, How Thinking can Harm, and the Natural Meditation Process with Matthew Zoltan [1/2] | #169
- Feel to Heal, How Thinking can Harm, and the Natural Meditation Process with Matthew Zoltan [2/2] | #170
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I know that sensation in the moment, that that sensation is a part of my lived experience in this moment, and then I think about it just a little bit after that. I might describe that to myself. So understanding what the body is has got an awful lot to do with understanding how it functions not not in the way that human beings have worked out. How it functions not from the outside, in, not intellectually, not how we've learned to think about how we function. Yeah, that's not understanding it, that's intellectually knowing about it. But what I'm saying to understand myself and my function is not in how I then talk about it and describe it to you. It begins and it ends in the feeling of it. So if you ask me, what is it like to be me? How am I going to even communicate that to you through words?
Speaker 2:Think flow growcast. Ich bin Tim Böttner. Begleite mich auf einer Reise zu einem ganzheitlichen Verständnis von Bewegung, gesundheit, fitness und einem guten Leben. Werde der Experte für deinen Körper und Geist, mit Wissenschaft, biohacking und Leidenschaft, kombiniert mit der Weisheit unserer Vorfahren und der Natur. Ein Podcast mit Tiefgang.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Finkrow Growcast and another episode of our journey into a deep understanding of the layers of human experience. This episode is obviously in English and I'm Tim Böttner and today joined by Matthew Sultan, again as we dive deep into the profound connection between our bodies and sensory awareness. In this conversation, we explore how our body, as a powerful sense organ, guides us through lived experiences, often overshadowed by the constant chatter of our minds. We will discuss the distinction between knowing and thinking, and how embracing our natural sensory abilities can lead to a more intuitive and connected life. So stick around for an enlightening discussion that culminates in a guided meditation inviting you to truly feel and embody these insights.
Speaker 2:As mentioned, this is the second podcast by Matthew Musolton, and all the topics we discuss and all the other podcasts you will find on thinkflowroadcom slash undo, because Matthew is the founder of the Undo Meditation app and the book Undo Meditation. So, without further ado, let's dive in. So hello, matthew, I'm so happy to have you again on my podcast. It's been a while it's been maybe nine months or something like that from our last podcast, so we had a couple of conversations in between and for me it's always really inspiring to talk with you about the body. And for all our listeners that didn't already listen to our first podcast episode, there were two episodes Do it Listen to them? Maybe now or maybe afterwards, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1:Yes, awesome.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we talked about the body, we talked about movement, about the mind, about the senses and, yeah, after our first conversation, you wrote me that you want to expand, um, the concept about the body. Um, I think you mentioned that there was maybe something missing, um, so let's start with this one. So the big question is what is the body? What is the body?
Speaker 1:Awesome, yeah, I wanted to expand on this because it's absolutely a crucial thing to understand and something that's been very confused because of introducing thinking, and so, as an animal, as a living living organism, we don't naturally think in the sense of complex words. We, we are taught to think. We've invented thinking, you know, over and above all animals. We've invented complex, uh, language and therefore that type of thinking, and there's a major problem for us with thinking that it has created an ability to separate, to divide things natural to the body, in the sense that we were born sensing, we were born feeling, and our senses and our ability to feel as a physical living organism is our ability to feel connected with our environment and one another, and so this is our primary source of information as well. So, sensing and senses our sight, our sound, our ears, our touch, our feel these are incredibly underrated, mainly because what we have done with what we sense of our environment is we've interpreted it through our thinking, but we didn't originally do this, meaning that as a baby, we simply had our senses and then we learned to think, and once we learn to think, the danger of this is we learn to think about ourselves, learn to think about ourselves, we learn to think about life. So to think about something if you listen to that simple word is if I'm thinking about something, then I am separate to the thing that I'm thinking about. That makes sense. Generally, I'll be thinking in a separated state from that which I'm thinking about. So, whereas when I'm sensing something, if I'm sensing I'm seeing something through my eyes, then there's no real separation between the experience of seeing and what I am seeing. One can't exist without the other, so they're a unitary movement. If I'm hearing something, the sound that I'm hearing and the act of receiving that sound are again one in the same movement. They're not. You can't separate one from the other. And one doesn't exist without the other because they're not really two things in our living experience, what we hear and the act of listening are one unitary experience and one one lived experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this is the natural state of any organism, of any animal. Uh, animal is to be in connection with its environment through its senses, and so our senses are then bringing information from our environment back inside of our entire body and system. So our entire body and system, our nervous system. I won't go into the detail, I won't detail the systems in our body. I'll just say everything we sense, we feel and everything we hear we feel.
Speaker 1:So, for example, anybody who's listening to me right now, if they bring their attention back to the act of listening, they will discover the act of listening to the sound of my voice is a sensation in their ears. Yeah, primarily so it's a sensation in that ear. Now, what is that sensation in the ear? It's a feeling, yeah, and so you actually feel to hear in that sense, yeah. So when you sense, you feel. So I'm bringing sensing and feeling together as one.
Speaker 1:In the same way, when you're looking at uh, the two of us, when anybody's looking at, we're looking at one another, but the, the audience, is looking at the two of us on the, on the screen. And when you're looking at someone, if you bring your attention into the action of listening sorry, the action of looking and seeing you'll feel that in your eyes. So if you bring your attention back to the act of looking, you will discover that the act of looking is essentially an action of your eyes, so, primarily and simply an action of your eyes. And again, when you feel into, if you bring your attention back to the sensation of looking, you discover that looking and seeing is in fact also a sensation. It boils back to a sensation, the sensation of that sense organ. Hence we call them sense organs. So all sense organs work on sensation and we take that to our skin and we're all sitting here and what we are feeling on our skin is feeling our connection with the world outside of our skin, but also from the skin back inside of ourselves it's all feeling again.
Speaker 1:So I'm just throwing this in as what we sense. Everybody can be playing with this as I'm talking. You don't have to get so involved in a complicated dialogue. But just what are we talking about? I'm talking about seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and what we feel on our skin is a lot more than we realise. It is our ability to sense and feel our own existence in totality and in connection and unbroken interconnection with the world around us.
Speaker 1:So if I'm feeling cold because the the temperature of the room is cold, then the temperature of the room and the cold that I'm feeling on my skin and into my body are actually one unitary, a connected thing. We can separate them, but how do we separate them? We separate them through our thoughts about them, through thinking about temperature, through thinking about the temperature in the room outside and the temperature of my body and my skin. We think about that and create this experience of separation, of, of a duality, but as far as the living organism is concerned, the only the environment. Being cold means I am cold and I cannot separate the two. Okay, the separation is only achieved through thinking about these things intellectually, through our thought process.
Speaker 1:So, from everything I see, I hear, I smell, and you can even try this, do all of it at once See, listen, smell and taste and feel the surface of your skin. Most people find that very difficult to feel all of those sensory abilities operating at once. Sensory abilities operating at once. Most people find that very difficult because they are operating in connection with their senses, through thinking about them, through their thoughts. So, the thought process I'm looking at that and I get involved in looking at that and I become so concentrated mentally in looking at that that I'm no longer really sensing what I'm listening to. So I actually become more involved in looking than I am in listening, whereas when you bring thinking out of it and you're just in the sensory experience, what you'll eventually find is that you are quietly looking, listening, feeling, tasting, smelling all at the same time, and this is how the body functions. We're not doing this, it's actually happening. We can't not do this. Whether we are aware of hearing or not, we are hearing. Whether we're aware of any of our senses or not, they are all functioning.
Speaker 1:So how do we disassociate or become unaware of our senses? Through thinking, because we think so much, and so the thinking process is something that is introduced a little later, after our birth. We're not naturally born. Thinking, and, interestingly, thinking in words, in complexity, creates an ability to think about ourselves and to think about our world. So once we're doing this, we're thinking about our thinking about ourself is already a separation from ourselves which we're thinking about.
Speaker 1:How do I mean by that? Is that when I'm simply in my natural state, I already am purely in the sense of myself. I can't not sense my own existence, I can't not feel the fact that I exist. I can't not feel me, yeah, unless I'm dead and therefore I'm not here. So if I'm alive, I'm feeling myself. I'm feeling myself, but I'm not thinking about that which I'm feeling. You see, I don't have to think about that which I'm feeling. You see, I don't have to think about that which I'm feeling. There's no need for me to do that to know that I'm feeling it. I might think about I'm cold, but that is only after I already know that I'm cold, which is a sensory experience. So first the body knows it's cold and then the thought process describes it afterwards. So the thought process is always separate to the lived experience, always once removed, if you like, from the immediate, ongoing living experience of who and what we are.
Speaker 1:So this is very, uh, simple, very, very simple. It's. It's actually simple and factual. It's something that everybody can understand. There's nothing mystical about what I'm saying, but what has happened is, through thinking, a lot we have managed to create through learning to think and then thinking a lot we have managed to create through learning to think and then thinking about ourselves, we have managed to create ideas about ourselves that are not actually grounded in the lived experience of ourself. So we learn ideas about ourselves, we learn beliefs about ourselves, we learn what other people think about us and so on, and these things are removed from our own direct experience, lived experience of what it is to be ourself. So this is really quite problematic. So bringing thinking into our life and not understanding how thinking can and has exploded into overuse through generations of constantly thinking and that through exploding into overuse, we've actually, step by step, lose touch with the touch of ourselves, the feel of ourselves. And thinking is not understanding. Thinking just describes what we understand.
Speaker 1:I don't know how it feels to be me in my thoughts about that. I know how it feels to be me in the feeling of me. I don't know that I'm sad through the word sad and I don't even experience sadness through the word sad. That lived experience is a purely physical sensation, a bodily sensation. If I can't feel sadness, then I don't know what sadness is in that moment. I don't know sadness. How do I know sadness? I don't know what sadness is in that moment, I don't know. Said, how do I know sadness? I know sadness in the moment that I feel it, and it's different every time. Every time I'm sad or any feeling that we have, whatever the sensation is, I know that sensation in the moment. That then sensation is a part of my lived experience in this moment. Yeah, and then I think about it just a little bit. After that I might describe that to myself.
Speaker 1:So understanding what the body is has got an awful lot to do with understanding how it functions, but not not in the way that human beings have worked out how it functions, not from the outside, in, not intellectually, not how we've learned to think about how we function. Yeah, that's not understanding it. That's intellectually knowing about it. But what I'm saying to understand myself and my function is not in how I then talk about it and describe it to you. It begins and it ends in the feeling of it. So if you ask me what is it like to be me, how am I going to even communicate that to you through words? It's very difficult. I'll go so far as to say it can't be done. It can't be done, it will only be my thoughts' clumsy interpretation of how it is to be me, purely for the purpose of communication, and that communication isn't really going to tell you what I'm trying to describe. I'm not going to succeed in communicating to you what it's like to be me Only.
Speaker 2:I know that.
Speaker 1:So how do I know that? Because I sense it. So sensing and knowing myself begins and ends there, in the sense of myself in the body, anything I think about that, or any philosophy or any concept, any thinking about me or thinking about life around me is an entirely different thing altogether. That's moving from what I can know. So that's moving from what I can know into what I think about what I can know. Yeah, I don't know if that's simple enough to start with.
Speaker 2:Maybe, maybe. So one thing that I understand was that the body, in one essence, is like a sense organ. It's like a big sense organ, a big receptor.
Speaker 2:It's a big sense organ yeah, a big receptor, yeah, and yeah, you mentioned that it's hard for people to develop their senses. And so in my conception, my unlock, your body concept. So I have a lot of practices and meditations where we isolate different senses for the purpose of develop the senses. So and you mentioned the skin, what I call the proprioception. In science terms we call it proprioception, but it's the skin, the feeling with the skin, and then it's the big interoception where we can start to sense. We can sense emotion feelings, we can sense organs, and the point is that if we go deeper and deeper, uh, we can sense so much, so we can sense, we can sense our organs.
Speaker 2:It's interesting we could imagine sensing organs and all that stuff and then we go into thinking and hallucinating. That could be a problem. But if you develop the senses step by step into reception, it's so vast what we can really really experience. And I mentioned that because I think sometimes we think if we are pretty intellectual and if we have some kind of intellectual arrogance, we say I think our senses are primal and just primal and not much. But that is if they aren't developed.
Speaker 2:If we develop our sense organs, there's so much we can sense. It's so vast and in my experience, we it's a good idea to isolate it and then integrate it, and then the point is that then we develop something like we can could call I call it intuition, and intuition for me is the is the stream of sensing, this richness. We can just sense the truth that emerges from our body, and then we have this intuition, what is? And then, yes, then the process can start where we can communicate it and we can think about that. But the primal sensing doesn't need any words or any thinking, and for me that feels like the intuition. Yeah, okay, before word.
Speaker 1:Okay. So when you talk about intuition, what do you mean? You don't mean words, you mean something before words.
Speaker 2:The knowing that emerges from the fullness of all my senses. Aha.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so the knowing that emerges from the fullness of all our senses is what I'm suggesting is the limit of and I'm not saying it's necessarily limited, but the limit of our capacity to actually know. So we can know about many things, but we only know what we immediately sense and know in that way. And spiritualists would like to say, oh no, this is very limited, the senses are very limited, and I would argue against that and say the senses are not limited at all. Thinking is limited, and thinking is limited to the fact that it can't actually know anything. Yeah, so we give thinking so much importance. We can know about things mechanically, of course, but when it comes to and challenge me on this, I'm just gonna, we're just gonna, go for it. You just, yeah, you go hard back at me. Yeah, so, because it's best for everyone.
Speaker 1:So thinking can't know anything, because thinking is only an additional invention, a mechanical process that we've discovered, we can use, we can create, we can do, we can image things, we can imagine things, we can think about things, but once we're thinking about things to the degree that we think about them, to the same degree we disassociate from them. So this is a conundrum with thinking. With thinking, we're wanting to understand everything, but if we try to understand ourselves and life around us, when we understand that the limit of knowing reality is in what we sensorily or at a felt lived sense, a living experience, the lived experience of ourselves and of our surroundings is all we actually know, that's our knowing. Yeah, beyond that is what we think. We can think a lot more than that, of course. We can think and think and think and think and think and imagine all sorts of things, but we can't really know those things as a sense of knowing. This is going from beneath thinking, as you're saying you're in. You use the word intuition now, the way you were just using the word intuition to say what you know before you think yeah, so it's a, it's a culmination of all that sensing, all that sense of what you are, yeah, and what you know. You, regardless of what we want to think, we are beyond that.
Speaker 1:We may want to think many things, but everything that comes of that, we're talking about the body, how important the body is, and I have found that all that we talk about is embodied, but we like to. There's a thing about the being, a body, a being about a living creature, the thing about us. So thinking is not a natural thing. Yeah, think is something we've done, we've learned and we taught, we've invented, if you like. Yeah, not saying it's wrong or harmful. It can be, but it doesn't have to to be.
Speaker 1:But what is the limit of thinking is that thinking itself is not a living thing, it's just a mechanical process. It comes out of the living thing. If I'm cold and I already have invented the word to describe that cold then that invention of the word cold I will use that word cold to describe, to say that I'm, that I am cold, yeah, but knowing I'm cold is not within the word. Yeah, I can only describe what I already know because it's my sense, my living sense of that. So, and so it goes, for I would say everything about what it is to be me. Yeah, everything that is to be me is known as the existence of me, and you were talking a little earlier about, like, experiencing your organs and so forth. And this is, this, is I don't. This is not limiting what you. I don't want to limit what you're saying there, because I can see there's a lot of value in this, particularly when you know, the scientific community often said you can't, you know, you only what you have sensory nerves for will what you experience. But actually there's a lot more to it than that, because we all have, all of us, sitting here, we can feel all through our body, and that which we feel is a solid, that which we feel, the hole from the skin back in, feels solid, a solid mass. That's how it feels to us anyway, and within the space in which that solid mass lives, you're not feeling any emptiness. You're not feeling any area inside of yourself that something doesn't exist. So, therefore, you have a sense of every part of yourself, a living sense of every part of yourself, a living sense of every part of yourself.
Speaker 1:But they're usually the only time that people really know about. It is when it's, um, not working well, yeah. When there's something wrong, yeah. And that's when people, oh yeah, now I feel my liver, I feel my kidney or I feel the disturbance. So what? What we do?
Speaker 1:As human beings, we like to separate the psychological from the physical and we can't. Again, there's no way we can do that. This is theoretically we can, and in in for the purpose of of talking about it. We can, but when I'm thinking about the way I am on the inside. This psychological description of me only means something if I am feeling that way on the inside, so I'm feeling cold or I'm feeling sad. If that sadness is not there, then the word doesn't mean anything, it's not going to, it's not in any way relating to me. Right now.
Speaker 1:The problem that human beings have is they've got so caught up in words that their words have become more important than the lived experience. So the disassociation from the lived experience of what they do and can know about themselves into thoughts about everything has become a major problem. Because then we start to think we can and do know things that we can't and don't. Yeah, so we move into the world of the imaginary, and in the world of the imaginary we can, we, can we because of what we think. Our thinking produces experiences.
Speaker 1:So our experiences, which are not already happening naturally, are thought induced. So, for example, you can, if you think enough about yourself in a certain negative way, it won't be long before your chemistry will be changed by that thinking and you'll actually feel in accordance with that thinking. Or if you use a meditation technique to I don't know to bliss out or to raise your vibrations I don't know, to bliss out or to raise your vibrations, then that thought process will ultimately induce this thought-induced experience. It will certainly change the chemistry of your body, so you have a certain experience, but the experience is not the real and natural experience of the body. It's a thought-induced fabrication, if that makes any sense. So so we can get really confused by these thought-induced fabrications, and this is where we just just just want to mention.
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Speaker 2:Smart Protein gives you exactly the building blocks that your body needs to be stronger, more focused and more resistant every day. Imagine you could simply improve your mental sharpness and physical resilience through a daily intake. Thank you, give your body the support it deserves. Use our code THINKFULGROW10 and save 10% on allespareverydaysde. You can also find the link and my discount code in the show notes. Absolutely, but so in one sense it is real too. So if it's self-induced and we can sense it, it is. It is too, it is true. So it is real in a way. So I think it's important to accept that because we can feel it.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's real.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree 100%. That's not a but. No, not In a way it's a but.
Speaker 2:But, words are important in a way, to point out things in a way. So, for example, you will guide us to a meditation in this podcast too, and obviously you will use words. You will use words to guide, maybe, awareness to our senses, and that's a beautiful way to use thoughts and words. So words and thoughts, just to guide ourselves. So for me it's important to have some in a way, have some ideas, some concepts, and then just observe what happens and then find my own truth. So for me it is important to study stuff and think about things and then observe what happens. So it's not a paradox, but in a way it is.
Speaker 1:Oh no you got a very good point there.
Speaker 2:Go on. My implicit question is also what's the function of thoughts and words? So, because we evolved with it. So in a way it is natural. So everything that is produced by us in nature in a way is natural because it is so. That's a fact too, in a way.
Speaker 1:Your first point about something being real, because it's been. If we can induce an experience and at the moment that we have that experience, we have to accept the fact that that's real. It's happening. Yeah, the chemical experience is happening. Yeah, the chemical experience is happening. Yeah, but if we are thinking in such a way that we, why are we wanting to, why are we wanting to create these experiences in the first place? Yeah, why are we?
Speaker 2:wanting to do that.
Speaker 1:It's logical that we're curious. We are curious creatures, but why do we want to be in any way feeling different to the way we are? And I think this is where understanding the nature of pain and the importance of our relationship with pain I don't want to spoil the direction you're taking there, because there's so much in that. We've got a lot to unpack, so bring it back as you need to, yeah. So why do we want to pursue an experience and create an experience beyond the one that's happening? Yeah, and create an experience beyond the one that's happening? Yeah, and I see you having an experience. Or you talk to me about your experiences and I go, oh, I want to have that experience, yeah, and I want to be able to be like you, or I want to be able to have that elevated state that you're talking about. But there's no way I can do that, because the first thing is, there's no way for me to know what your experience is. Anyway, at any point in our existence together, I will never know what your experience is, if that makes sense. Yeah, I only know what my experience is, because knowing and thinking are very I'm separated the two from the beginning.
Speaker 1:Thinking is not a lived experience. Thinking is a is a description of the lived experience, at most. Yeah, so I can say I'm sad, but I can't contain or capture the word sadness. So I I can say I'm, I'm a self-realized being, but I can't contain what that means in a word, and so I can't really even say that to myself. Once I say that to myself, I've got something entirely different. I've got the description of it, which is a whole bunch of ideas and it's loaded with all sorts of nonsense. All I really can know is what is it to be me? I can't compare that with you, because I can't know what it is to be you and you can't know what it is to be me.
Speaker 1:We can think, we know on a very basic, superficial level, but the actual lived experience that each one of us have is unique, uniquely our own experience. Even if they happen to be exactly the same, we're never going to know that that make any sense. We have no way to know that, even if we could have, even if it happens to be that males and females are in fact exactly the same creature and I feel exactly the same feelings. Their sexuality is the same, everything is the same. None of us are ever going to know that I can't even know. I can't know what I don't know as a lived experience. I simply don't know. Yeah, and I can't know that. So why Does that make sense so far?
Speaker 2:Sure, sure, it does. Just one example that I'm observing a little bit is that some great teachers about consciousness being when, just scripture or something like that scripture or something like that, there's one point where there are sentences that are easier and easier, easier and just one word, and in the end there is no word. It's just some pointers. But the thing is that the deeper a teaching becomes, often the less words are used because nobody can get it. So just if everyone would understand the one sentence from the Buddha, everything would be peace and love. But obviously we can't get it, so obviously we can't get the essence in one word or one sentence. So in a way it doesn't matter too.
Speaker 1:This last point you made, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:It doesn't matter. And in the end sometimes I just some of my mentors, just if I ask some questions, just like a smile, they just answer it just with a smile, and I know what the smile means. So because it just reflects back on me. So that's the only point.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that makes sense, doesn't it? So it only reflects back on you. So and that's that's the only point, okay, so that that makes sense, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:so only reflects back on you, meaning that, yeah okay, so, so that it means just the smile is just you know so, you know so okay so this reveals a major problem in the, in our thinking, in what.
Speaker 1:What is being brought into thinking is the idea that we don't know, and that's why I put so much time into this first part of the talk. I didn't realise, but now I'm just realising. That's the reason I put so much time into this first part of the talk is to point out what is the difference between knowing and knowledge, and knowing. I'm using these words in this way. They can be used in many way, but of many ways, of course. But when I'm talking about knowing, it's something that each and every one of us know already, in the fact that we know our own existence. But how do we know our own existence? Because we feel it. How do we even know we exist? Only because we can sense that existence, not sense another's existence or some other existence. No, because I can sense my own existence. And is there any way not to sense your existence? You actually find out. It's impossible. Yeah, by dissociating. But even when you're disassociating, yeah, but even when you're disassociating, yeah, even when you're disassociating there, you're still existing in a disassociated, in your disassociated state. Yeah, you're still existing, aren't you? And you still know you exist because, no matter how many ways you disassociate, how many ways you change the way you want to be yeah into something else you might want to be, you're still stuck with just being you, yeah, and there's no escape from being you. There is one escape, that is to cease. Come to an end, yeah. So there you go, to die to come to an end. But otherwise, if you exist, you know you exist. In whatever state or form or condition you're in, you know you exist. So why are we interested in the other people's existence and how they exist and what they can teach us, when actually they can't teach us anything? I don't think they can teach us anything. Yeah, and that's what I'm interested in. Helping people see, is that I cannot teach anyone anything, but what I can try and do is blow away the illusion that somebody can. Yeah, but that also means we're going to have to blow away the illusion that there is somebody out there who can do it for you. Yeah, because we want that? Why? Because we want something different to what we're already experiencing. We want something different to what we already are. Yeah, I'm talking a fundamental human problem. Yeah, we. This is so interesting how our conversations evolve, yeah, yeah, so it's dropped into such a fundamental thing. We want to be different to the way we are in, in different ways that we are. We change all the time, but often we want to be different. Sometimes we don't want to be different. Sometimes we're perfectly happy to be just the way we are, but usually when we're in a bit of distress or a bit of pain, then we don't want to be that way. Yeah, so why do we want to have more experiences when other people you know people want to change their chemistry or use thought to bring about a change in their experience, and they find out they can. But why? And fundamentally, we think we can have those experiences that other people have. Yet there's no way for us to ever prove that to ourselves, that we have their experiences, and there's no way to know what their experience is and there's no way for them to communicate their lived experience to us in such a way that we can get it.
Speaker 1:I hope I'm not making you sound too smart here. I don't want to sound too intellectual. It's not intellectual, it's taking away all the props that we have. You're hanging on to this guru, that guru, this teacher. Gurus and teachers are not to be trusted? Yeah, because no one's got anything to teach you, not in the sense of a guru who's going to teach me about you know something mechanical and practical to my life Great, yeah, but someone who's going to teach me about what it is to be me, they've got to be delusional. There's nothing to learn in the first place about being me.
Speaker 1:I already have that sussed to such an extent that I don't have a choice. I am me, so I don't even have a choice. So, for example, when you're using that example of using different techniques and I might have misunderstood this, but I want to use this for purposes right now or you want to develop your senses, develop each sense organ this exposes to me a type of thinking from the outside in, and this is a very classical form of thinking that there is something that we need to improve on about the way we already are. So can I develop this or that further? You can develop your muscles. You can develop, yeah, you can develop your abilities, your mechanical abilities. You can develop your muscles. You can develop your abilities, your mechanical abilities. You can develop in that way. But is there anything to develop in yourself, or is it just recognizing how you're already functioning. You see what I'm trying to get at. Is it really?
Speaker 2:I get it um, absolutely, uh, absolutely um little but is that, um, in a way it's so what you were describing? I agree 100, and in a maybe philosophical way, I don't know. That's the underlying process, that there's just something to discover and nothing to learn, nothing to do, but the but is in a practical way. It could be useful to have a technique and have this idea to develop something as a, as a practical process, maybe to entertain our thinker. But underlying underneath is the realization that there's nothing to learn, it's just to discover our own senses.
Speaker 1:So glad you brought it back to this. Yeah, you're very good at this. You brought it back to this primary thing you were saying before. Like you were talking about, people can say, bring things down to one word, and even then it's not something that can be of really any use because you already know. Yeah, but what you know isn't necessarily what you want to know.
Speaker 1:Um, so the problem with this word thing here, with the technique thing and, as I said before, the thought induced experience, if the experience is any way thought induced, which many of our experiences are, but the sense of ourself beneath thinking, that changes all the time. But it's not wrong because we change all the time. We're changing, we're going through different changes all the time, any moment in which we are in the experience of ourself, in the lived experience of ourself, not thoughts about that, but just the sense of ourself as we are in the body. And it has to be in the body because there's no way else to sense our own existence. The other is thinking. Anything spiritual is already in the thinking world, but before thinking comes into it you don't have spiritual, you have to have thought to come up with the ideas that make up the spiritual world. So animals don't have that spirituality. Humans do, because we think so much and we imagine many, many things and we think all about these things. I'll go into that in a little while, but, staying with what you've brought up, we'll both go into that in a little while, not just me, is that okay?
Speaker 1:So we, if we have a thought-induced experience, I would say enlightenment, the classical enlightenment of buddhist enlightenment, or self-realization of the you know, of the yogis. Is there such a thing or is it just a thought-induced experience? If you can use a technique to achieve it, then it's a thought-induced experience. If you can use a technique to achieve it, then it's a thought-induced experience. And so anybody can achieve that result through using those techniques. But what is that result? It's a common result. You follow. It's a common result, so meaning that the ideas of what it is to be an enlightened person formulate a pretty clinical structure that everybody can fit into. So enlightened person must be peaceful, non-reactive. Let's say that's an enlightened, I'm just using that for the hell of it. Yeah, so okay, so I'm going to achieve a state where I'm at peace with myself and non-reactive. Well, you can do that. Um, you can kid yourself in doing that too. Yeah, but if anything that's thought induced, is that really you? Is that really being you, or is that a product of that technique?
Speaker 1:So the danger of using a technique to achieve anything about yourself, of yourself, is that the first thing you're doing is you're introducing the idea that there is something more to achieve and that there is already something lacking in what it is you already are. So, without the idea that there's something lacking in what it is you already are, you're not really at odds with what you are. You might be uncomfortable with it, but you, when you're uncomfortable with something and you can accept that there's nothing I can do about this, because anything I do about my pain is I'm fighting my pain. Anything I'm doing about my anger is I'm angry with my anger. Anything I'm doing about my impatience is I'm impatient about being impatient. Yeah, if I don't, do you follow. If I don't do anything about my impatience, then I'm just impatient. But I'm impatient until when. I'm impatient, until it changes in its own sweet time. But at any moment, if I step in and practice patience, I'm suppressing my impatience and I'm introducing something over the top of it. This is just one example. So have I really changed anything, or have I just created a thought-induced state out of some idea of how I should be? So it's very problematic this.
Speaker 1:It's very problematic this, using thought to achieve a certain state, which I think is better, because it's, firstly, based on the idea that I need to achieve something, and I'm not talking on a physical level you might need more money in your bank account. That's completely separate to what we're talking about. We're simply talking about can I be anything more than I am? Not? Should I be? The wrong question is asked how can I be more? How can I be more? And? And everybody's throwing techniques at us on how to be more, but no one's asking the question well, can I be more, be more and should I be more? I can explain this.
Speaker 1:I might have to just run this one a little bit, actually, because we're looking at life through thinking. We think about life when we think, we create time. You know, when I think, I think about tomorrow, I think about the past, when I sense I'm not'm not thinking. Sensing has got nothing to do with tomorrow or yesterday. Yeah, sensing is something that is a lived experience. Only when I'm sensing it, you see the difference. So in in the sense of myself in the body. I'm in the lived experience, myself as I am now, and that's nothing to do with tomorrow or yesterday. That make sense, it does. It does good, whereas when I move into thoughts about myself or thought, then I'm thinking about myself in terms of the past, in the future. Yeah, I can analyze myself based on what I've seen before and I can look at what I'd rather be in the future based on what I didn't like about myself in the past.
Speaker 1:So the trouble with this is we're looking at life through time, but time is just thoughts. Time is just time is only looking at ourselves in the sense of time is not really looking at ourselves at all, because we don't exist in the future and we don't exist in the past. We exist right now, and I'll break this down a little bit further. Only the body is in the future and we don't exist in the past. We exist right now, and I'll break this down a little bit further. Only the body is in the here and now. Only what we sense is in the here and now. Only the known is in the here and now. But what we think about cannot really get into the here and now. It's always.
Speaker 1:Thinking is something that keeps us always moving, always trying to. So when we think about ourselves in life, we imagine that we're this way now and we can become that way tomorrow, and so we think that there's something we can do about this. We think we create all sorts of techniques and all sorts of ideas and philosophies and religions and spiritualities and belief systems to improve upon that which we are. Yeah, but it's a little bit like this buddhist concept of being in the here and now, and I always say well, where the hell else can you be, where else can you exist? If you exist, you exist now. If you existed and you don't exist anymore, then that was yesterday. If you haven't yet come into existence, but you're about to, then that might be tomorrow, but of course that's silly because the only existence is in the here and now. So they come up.
Speaker 1:Religion and philosophy creates the problem. That we're not in the here and now creates the problem because they're looking at life from the outside in. They're looking at life through thinking. Through thinking about life, you experience life in a very different way, in the sense that what I'm saying here is I experience life in this very, very different way. Is that I look at life as past, present and future, and that's okay, but that is only theoretical. The only life that we can know is the life that we are living in this moment. So, therefore, if we can't live anywhere else, if we can't live anywhere else, if we can't be anywhere else, why are we creating techniques to live in the moment? It's, it's insanity. Yeah, it's crazy. You, there's nothing to be done.
Speaker 2:Go on, I want to see what comes back now, in the last couple of minutes, I uh got a lot. Uh, I think I got a couple of points. Um, we start with, I think, one point is, I think, right now so if we created this world in a way that we are thinking, a lot did you say world, world this world, this reality, we created a reality based on thinking so that's in a way, that's in a way that's a fact that we created the future, the past, scripture, ideas.
Speaker 2:So we created a whole reality based on that. So, and I think that's just one part that we can accept, that's part of our created reality. If maybe it's imaginary, yes, could be, can be, but it is In a way, it is because we created this.
Speaker 1:And imagination has real effects, absolutely, it has very real effects.
Speaker 2:We talked about imagination. Our beliefs create our biochemistry. That's a fact, so obviously.
Speaker 1:Very real effects.
Speaker 2:It has real effects, so we should accept that. So, obviously, very real effects. Yeah, it has real effects, so we can, we should accept that, so that we created that. Okay, that's one. That's one point.
Speaker 2:In my past I don't have any problems with the word spirituality. For me, spirituality I don't have any problems with this one. And then I reflected my own experiences. So my own experience, what I call spiritual experience, the common experience, for me is connection. Connection means connection with all of my senses, with the fullness of my senses, with what you call the present moment, with the here and now. All that stuff. And the common denominator is connection and it can be that a result of that, the connection, the flow that I'm experiencing, the being one with life, for me it feels like life. That's then maybe it can feel like peace, in a way that I experience peace maybe as connection, as connection so when, um and that's interesting because that's for me that is in spiritual experience feeling the connection with, in a way, everything, with life, yeah, yeah and, yeah, getting rid of the illusion of separation in a way so and it's interesting.
Speaker 2:It's interesting because, um, I think I got your point in a way that people think that a so-called spiritual peak experience is something separated for the lift from the lift experience, but, in a way, what I experience as a peak spiritual experience is the lived experience of my lived experience yeah so it's like a like the switch, the I, I.
Speaker 2:I'm waking up from the illusion of the separation in a way, but maybe we are confused by that. We think that our, the, our lived experience right now, no, we think that our lived experience right now, no, that the illusion is our lived experience. This way around.
Speaker 1:Can you say that last one again? Maybe we think what we're confused by.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we are confused, that we think that the illusion of separation is our innate reality. Ah, yes, and another point that you made is a really important point, that if I want to be an enlightened being, I have to become something different than what I am. But for me the point is connection, connection to myself, to what I am, and then I realize myself, and then I'm in myself, and then I make the experience for to, to be just myself, and in my experience that could be a close one to what people describe as an enlightened experience. But yeah, let's skip this word. But exactly, yeah, that are my thoughts, that are my experiences.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, you, you want to skip the word because it's it's so it's almost silly, yeah it trivializes yeah, it really trivial, ah, so what you're?
Speaker 1:so, for the sake of our conversation, but also for the sake of the people listening, um, I think it's very important to bring in uh that we can say in a connected, you feel connected, or we feel connected, or we feel peaceful, and so forth. But we are also connected in our agonies. We're also connected in our pain. In fact, when we are in our worst condition, we are often brought to our most connected state, where we're no longer feeling as though we're superior to another being and we are really beaten down. Then often, that's when we really feel our vulnerability, and when we really feel our vulnerability, we also feel our sameness with other people. Yeah, so if we drop all the ideas that say something different about you and something different about me and cause that what I would call imaginary separation, that is, that I see you as a very different person to me because you have this belief system and I have that belief system. But the belief systems are nothing to do with you or me. Yeah, the light of with me being me and you being you. The belief systems are what we're trying to add on the top of all that. But when they fail which inevitably they do, and every single day in human history. They have failed to bring about what they promise, which is harmony and so forth, but they bring about separation, they bring about conflict between people. I'm not saying it's the fault of the people, but the nature of creating ideas that simply are so opposed to one another that they just clash, and that's what we tend to do. So also, when we create ideas, we create ideas and we belong to those ideas, or we identify with those ideas because they're the ones that we think are the best and they're better than the other person's ideas. So, inevitably, a religious or spiritual person I know how you're using the word spiritual too but in a classical sense, inevitably they tend to be hierarchical. They tend to feel as though they are superior to people who are not spiritual, or people who oh, we know something you don't know. Well, do they? Or is there any difference at all between the materialist and the spiritualist, when we are exactly the same thing, but from the materialist point of view, we see the world in one way. From the spiritualist point of view, we see the world in a different way, but we're both looking at the same world. Yeah, so the common denominator is what we're looking at is the same. We may be looking at it through a different set of ideas or a different set of beliefs, yeah, so the only thing that's confusing there is the ideas is the belief. Yeah, because the belief is yeah, the belief is like the veneer of perception through which I interpret the world. Yeah, so can I? Can I get past that veneer of of perception through which I interpret the world and get back to what the world actually is and what I actually am? And for that, that's where I'm finding it's very.
Speaker 1:I think it's very important to bring people back to being grounded in their body, but being grounded in their body, because once I'm in my sense of myself in the body, and that's all there is to me at this point, then there is no way for me to see myself, you know, as greater or lesser than other people. I'm now the same as you, yeah, unless you might have a more beautiful body than me, but that's another idea coming in. Yeah, but the fact is, if I look at the body of you and the body of me, essentially it's functioning exactly the same. We are all essentially the same and essentially, the body has been around for millions of years and it's the most amazing thing that's been overlooked through too much thinking about life yeah, but included in the body. And this was the point gee, that was very long-winded because I finally got to the point that I wanted to add on is that whether you're feeling connected or disconnected, the fact is you are connected. Yeah, and it's not a matter of trying to be connected, it's a matter of recognising the fact that you are. So if I'm trying to be connected connected I'm still basing my efforts on the belief that I'm somehow disconnected. Yeah, and I've got to do something to become connected.
Speaker 1:But if I just come back to forget about all those ideas and just come back to the basis of what I am, I'm just this physical organism, I'm just this live, live creature. Whatever the word physical may encompass, yeah, it doesn't have to be a materialist view of the physical. It could be the spiritualist view of the physical, yeah, or something else entirely. Yeah, and it is something else entirely, I would go be so bold to say, because it's that which is not being described, it's not captured in a description. It's the existence that we all know we are, but we can't explain it to one another. We all know we are because we are it. We exist as we are, but we don't know what we're going to be tomorrow and we don't really know what we will be.
Speaker 1:In the lived experience, in what we know, we don't know what we were yesterday and we don't really know what we. In the lived experience, in what we know, we don't know what we were yesterday and we don't know what we will be tomorrow. We only know what we are now. What I mean by that is what is it that you, that is known to you right now? And and we're not talking about what you can remember that's not knowing. Knowing, that's memory, that's thinking, and tomorrow is a projection of that thinking.
Speaker 1:But knowing we talked about since the beginning is what is the knowing sense that I have? It has to be a living sense, it has to be something that's happening right now and that's what I can know, if it's part of my living experience. It has to be happening right now because I'm alive now and I don't really even want to limit this idea of now and past and present. I'm just using it to make the point that whatever is the experience of me right now, that's what I am, that's what I have. And right now this is a crucial point Right now, there's absolutely nothing I can do about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's absolutely nothing I can do about it. So, if there's absolutely nothing I can do about it right now, when will I be able to do something about it? Because whenever I can be doing something about it, that will also be right now. You see, our dilemma it's always going to be right now. There is no escaping. Right now, yeah, and always right now we're going to be going. I want to be different, but there's absolutely nothing I can do right now to be any different to what I am right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, does that make sense? So we've got a problem here? Yeah, so perhaps we're barking up the wrong tree. I'm just chucking this in for the fun, yeah, no, not for the fun, it's serious, but it's also for the fun. Perhaps we're barking up the wrong tree in thinking that we are somehow lacking, undeserving, lesser, and that we need to somehow evolve to a greater state. What about if that's all bullshit? What about if we make a mistake? We've made a mistake and the mistake is simply our perception of ourselves. There's absolutely nothing wrong with ourselves as we are right now, but we just can't see it, because we've got all these ideas. That says there is something wrong with ourselves as we are right now.
Speaker 1:And we also have the experiences that say there's something wrong, because if I don't feel very good, then I have the experience that says this is crap. So this is where it's really really hard, the things that we say. When we say this is crap, that's when we're in pain psychological or physical pain. So if I'm in psychological or any of our listeners are in psychological or physical pain right now which I would expect a large majority are, or they will be tomorrow or they were yesterday and go sorry for us, all of us will be tomorrow or yesterday or have been or are now somewhere in us in pain, in distress, and our objection to that distress is understandable, but it is the problem. Our reaction to that distress is understandable, but I'm trying to say that that is the problem the way in which we perceive ourselves, the bias that we have about the experience of being me is really causing us to suffer, what we experience.
Speaker 2:Your body relaxes, but also your mind. The routines are designed to address as many body systems as possible, which guarantees the optimal use of your time and attention, because both are super important goods In this sense. There are not many theoretical reasons, as you learn in the Unlock your Body Academy, for example, but simply eight fresh routines for practice. The video course contains eight effective and simple routines in 15 minutes each. They help you to reduce tension, stress and pain, to align your body, to speed up movement and promote whole-time strength Just 15 minutes, no matter when on the day. The special thing is in the holistic approach that I combine biomechanics, neurology, breathing, meditation and, above all, my own experience the experience with clients sensibly to effect real transformations. Most of the exercises take place on the ground, because that's where our movement begins vor allem die eigene Erfahrung, die Erfahrung mit Klienten, einfühlsam kombiniere, um echte Transformation zu bewirken. Die meisten Übungen finden am Boden statt, weil dort unsere Bewegung beginnt und sie dort auch enden wird, und wir sie eben da wieder lernen können. In diesem Sinne ist der Kurs perfekt für Gesundheitsenthusiasten, die sich in einem Körper wieder wohlfühlen möchten, die etwas für sich tun möchten und die Verbindung zu sich selbst kultivieren wollen, den Link zu dem, and want to cultivate the connection to yourself.
Speaker 2:You can find the link to the course that you can have for a small dollar in the show notes. Tension in a way. So there's no tension because there's no resistance, and but just if we separate and we want to change something, then we create tension and then we create suffering, because we are suffering in the first state in a way. So maybe, maybe that isn't even suffering, the first suffering, that isn't even suffering it's just, it just is, but it's suffering.
Speaker 2:If we resist, then we create tension. We create distress because we are in distress and then the whole drama of our lives unfold because we are in distress. Because we are in distress, yeah, we create tension, yeah we.
Speaker 1:So can I repeat what you said, maybe in a different way, because there's probably no need to, because everything you said is absolutely clear to me. But this is a very crucial point. I don't want people to overlook it because, yes, we may be in pain, yes, we may have some psychological distress, we may have some distress, distress, we may have some distress in our system. Let's say, yeah, and as you're saying, that's the first pain. But is that the pain of suffering? And I would say not. I would say what turns that pain, that living pain, that living distress, into suffering, that is, prolonging that beyond its natural duration. And how do we do that? It's because we complain about it, because we react to it, because we have all these ideas that we shouldn't be this way. We react to it because we have all these ideas that we shouldn't be this way, because we won't and can't have been taught to think in such a way that we no longer had the maturity to accept a fact as a fact.
Speaker 1:I can accept a fact as a fact doesn't mean I like being in pain. Yeah, that's okay. I'm not saying we have to like it. Acceptance doesn't mean you like what you're accepting, but you're not resisting the fact. Resisting a fact is pointless and what it does? It's pointless. And whether that fact happens to be that I'm sad, that I'm hungry, that I'm ill right now, or I've got a problem in my life, in my relationship, that's my fact, that's a fact. What will I do if I don't resist it? Or sorry, firstly, if I'm resisting it, as you said, I'm separating from it. I'm separating from the fact into an exaggeration on that fact, meaning my emotionalization, my resistance, my thought complaint and rejection of something that simply cannot be successfully rejected because it is a fact. Yeah, so if we reject it, we create this imaginary separation from it. So, yes, it is separation, but the separation itself is imagined. Yeah, it's impossible to separate. It's impossible to separate, yeah, but we manage to do it because we do it through our thinking, through our thought reaction to the pain. So, in thought reaction, unfortunately, being the inventors of thought, we've invented suffering Rather than enduring pain like an animal does and laying down and letting it heal.
Speaker 1:We do everything we can to get rid of it. We do everything we can to fight it off. We do everything to drug it out, to letting it heal. We do everything we can to get rid of it. We do everything we can to fight it off, we do everything to drug it out, to numb it out, and all we do is prolong the misery. Actually, we prolong the misery because we're unable to connect. So where do we, at what point do we connect? So you're saying, because I'm saying in this lived experience, we may be having a difficult lived experience, but every single one of us are going to continue having difficult lived experiences between now and when we finally die.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the idea that an enlightened person is one who doesn't have that is problematic. Yeah, the idea that an enlightened person is one who doesn't have that is problematic because it makes everybody else feel as though they should be like that, and this is therefore. Enlightenment is the problem. The idea of it is the problem. It's causing more pain and misery in the world than anything. The idea that you should be something that you're not, that you're not okay as you are, is causing the pain and the misery, because it's causing people to object to being what they are, to resist the fact of what they are and to try and be something that they will never be, which is something other than what they are. It's just the worst crime that all the gurus and all these teachers have given to the world, the worst crime.
Speaker 1:In my view. This is causing so much confusion and so much suffering and so much misery, because what people need to know is how can I live with the way I am? Not, how can I be better than the way I am, but how can I live with the way I am, knowing that there is, and be honest with everybody? Can we all be honest with each other? You are never going to be different to what you are in that moment, in this moment. There is no escaping what you are in this moment. Therefore, as far as you are concerned, as far as I am concerned, in my lived experience, in my lived existence, I'm never going to have the choice to be any different to what I am when I wake up in the morning.
Speaker 1:You see, this delusion that the human species have created is that we're in control of our world and we can make shit happen. And the more we do that, the more disassociated we're becoming. Yeah, so this separation is imaginary. It's real and imaginary. The effects are real, it has real effects, but it's born out of our imagination that we can actually be separate to one another, or to ourselves, or to our feelings, or to the facts of life internally, of how we are inside, and the facts of life externally what's actually happening in our life? We can't. We can't be separate to what's happening in our life because it affects us, so we't be separate to what's happening in our life because it affects us, so we're not separate to it. Even if we pretend we are, we're still affected and the only motivation for pretending we are is because we are affected and we don't like the effect.
Speaker 1:The motivation for being in Buddhist detachment is because we don't like what we're attached to. We don't have the intelligence or the understanding I don't mean the word intelligence, as in hierarchy we don't have the understanding that we are affected and there's no way to stop that effect. So if we are affected, if we can accept that, that we are affected and there's no way to stop that effect, then we give up on all these ideas of reaching some illuminated state where we're unaffected and detached and unmoved. Yeah, and come back to the fact. Well, I'm unaffected. It's impossible for me to not be affected, so maybe I've been asking the wrong question. How can I not be affected? How can I be different.
Speaker 1:I think we've been asking the wrong question and I think the right question is how can I live with the facts of life, not be lord over them, like the human species has deluded themselves into thinking that they're the lords of the earth. Not to lord over the facts, not to be in control of the facts, but to see the fact that we're not in control of the facts at all. Therefore, if we're not in control of the facts, we're not in control of the effects of those facts, whether they be imaginary or real. The effects are real. Then how the hell are we going to live with those facts? What is stopping us from living with those facts effectively?
Speaker 1:So this is where it becomes very interesting how can I live with my pain? How can I live with my condition, however that happens to be? How can I live with myself exactly as I am and stop complaining about myself? I'm not saying to people stop complaining about yourself. That's not how you're going to stop complaining about yourself. Yeah, so there's no technique to stop complaining about yourself, but understanding is what we need. Yeah, if I complain about myself myself, how does that feel? It has an effect on me? Yeah, and that's when I suffer, if I don't complain about myself. How does that feel? Try it and find out. And this starts to show you how you can really try it and find out. Try dropping the idea that you are somehow inadequate, even though you absolutely believe you are, not you personally.
Speaker 1:I know that, but we're talking to a lot of people here. So how do I live with myself the way I am? That is a much more important question to how can I be different or improve myself. One is a reaction to the way I am and the other is beginning to accept the way I am. And the reaction to the way I am is why I suffer. If the reaction to the way I am is why I suffer, yeah, if the reaction to the way I am is why I'm suffering and the solution to my suffering is accepting myself as I am, then I find out that maybe that's, maybe that's a better question. Yeah, and as you're saying, the separation causes all this problem.
Speaker 1:I would go so far as to the separations imaginary separation between mind and body, soul and spirit. It's all one thing, or that's what we know. That's all I know. You can't know any more than that, because you can't have an experience of the lived experience of yourself does not extend beyond now, exactly what we are now. The lived experience of myself does not extend beyond now, exactly what we are now. Yeah, the lived experience of myself does not extend beyond exactly what we are now. The only thing that extends beyond what I am now is my imagination. Yeah, we've created all this shit in the world. No harm done? Yeah, maybe there is. We could argue that We've created all these ideas.
Speaker 1:But regardless of all those ideas, I'm not against them or for them. They just have no relevance to my existence. They have nothing to do with me. What people believe, what we've been taught by the Buddha or by Mickey Mouse, is just as important to me. Neither of them have any importance because neither of what those two people say, mickey Mouse and the Buddha neither of what those two ideas I don't mean that as a derogative term, I'm just saying it's irrelevant to me.
Speaker 1:It's not about. The only thing that really is going to mean anything to me is my lived experience, and only I can know that and only I can't escape that. Do you follow what I mean? You can escape being around me, but I can't. I'm stuck with me. So I know I've gone on a bit there, but it came out of me quite passionately because I thought it was a very important point that I really do want to share with people in general. It's very hard, but we have to go further. More education is needed for sure. How do we live with ourselves as we are? How do we stop reacting to ourselves, all these ideas we have about ourselves not being good enough? There's no evidence of that to me. I've never found evidence of me not being good enough, only thoughts about me that say I'm not good enough. But when it comes back to me, the lived experience of me, well, there's no choice.
Speaker 2:Anyway.
Speaker 1:I want to hear what you want to ask or bring up next.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's important right now. So we talked a lot about things we don't want to talk about. Because we don't want to talk about that we want to experience about. Because we don't want to talk about that we want to experience, and I think that's a good point to um, yeah, guide our listeners into a meditation to yeah, embody what we've said.
Speaker 2:Okay, talk about.
Speaker 2:I think that's the most important part.
Speaker 2:And just just a comment, I think, uh, you talked so beautiful about just being enough and we talked, talked about how our thoughts create our biochemistry too. And the point is we reject ourselves, so we reject our body and that's important, that our biology will follow, in a way, the idea that we aren't enough, the rejection of our sadness, of our anger, all these bad states. So we think these bad states, so-called bad states, anger, sadness, all that stuff could make us sick. But, in a way, if we reject ourselves, reject the feelings, we give our biology the signal that's not good and our biochemistry will, in a a way, do a lot of harm. And, in a way, if we experience aggression, anger, sadness, and feel connected to that and love our body or just be with our body, be connected to that, we say yes to our body, be connected to that, we say a yes to our body and I experience that that's a good signal to our biology because we will heal. So healing means connection and means connection to all colors of our experience.
Speaker 2:So that's some kind of a paradox, but it isn't, you know I don't want to go deep, deeply into this root, because I think we covered that, but it's important to understand. So sickness isn't created by anger and sadness, but maybe it's connected by don't connect to these experiences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you try and disconnect or react to those experiences, yeah, it's a natural thing to be angry. Why are we judging it as wrong and therefore, in our judgment, getting angry with being angry?
Speaker 2:There's the problem, not the anger itself. And then the signal is to our body my body isn't, I don't like my body, I'm not connected to my body, I reject my body.
Speaker 1:and the body will follow in a way, it will, and that's the situation, that sickness that's suffering I hope everybody can see that when you and I talk, this is the more we, the more often we talk with each other, the more gutsy it gets. Hey, because more of you comes out in the open, more of me comes out the open. We're getting a comes out in the open. We're getting a lot more comfortable with being really strong with each other, and that's really good quality for everyone. Yeah, and what's so good about it is there's no fear between one another of clashing or having conflict. Not that it's actually because, actually, if it even looks that way on the outside, we're not in conflict with each other at all. We're really really so down the same track. It's completely to do with the fact, I think, of the connection, the interconnectedness with our physicality as the living expression of us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think this is where we're both grounded. We're both so grounded in the body of what we are there's. The ideas aren't us are very, very secondary importance. Yeah, but we need to use words and ideas to to communicate with each other and to communicate with other people as best we can. But it's very important, yeah, what you're saying there the effect we have on our health when we don't allow what we call the good and the bad to be there equally and to think that we shouldn't be in the state we're in. We're going to have to go into that particular topic in another talk, which I think next time we're talking together, we're talking about trauma and this will be, uh, we'll take this a lot further so people are not going to be left hanging at this point, uh, but the where we brought you to uh, in this discussion, we will be taking this a lot further into helping you understand how to bring this practically into your life. Yeah, and that's very important, and so I look forward to that. Anyway, me too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely yeah, I think, for right now, let's. So. You're the creator of the Undo app. The Undo app is an awesome, maybe meditation app. Let's call it meditation app, and you're guiding people and me, beautiful into the body, into the intelligence of the body, the body intelligence. And yeah, let's get a taste, let's take 10 minutes, let's do a meditation guided by you. Okay, and yes, and, and maybe maybe we can do something. We can um, yeah, afterwards, maybe don't, we don't talk a lot afterwards, we just finish, um finish, so that people can experience whatever they want to experience.
Speaker 1:I think that's, that's beautiful, all right so shall we just do the meditation and then we just finish the?
Speaker 2:program. Maybe a couple of words, maybe a couple of nice words that you feel bubbling up. That's good. No more advertisement and all that stuff. So all the stuff we are talking about and your work I link to in the show notes. People can find that, yeah, I, I don't?
Speaker 1:it's better they can see all that. I don't need, I don't need to do advertising. No, it's better if you, you do that on your um, on your show I do it.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I have to do it, I know that's your job.
Speaker 1:No, but, but that sounds like a really good idea. Otherwise, we can take away from. What really matters to you and me, and actually matters to the audience as well, is whatever they can benefit from. Yeah, personally, yeah, whatever we can give them and it was so good today we managed to work together so much more equally, yeah, the input coming from you as much as me, I felt today, and that was really nice. I was hoping we'd get to that point.
Speaker 2:So, really well done, we did it really well, to be honest, I got a couple of new points. Because it's so interesting I don't want to open that up, but anyways, your background is so different than my background and you were exposed to in your life to a lot of ideas, and I was exposed to others' ideas and because we have to communicate with language. So it's interesting sometimes how I need some time to gut the point that you're expressing, and it's so beautiful when it makes click. Ah, now I got it. So that's beautiful. That's beautiful.
Speaker 1:That's a very good point. Yeah, and the audience has heard me, if they particularly heard me talk for the first time. You only hear the surface of what I'm saying. Um, you won't. You won't have understood it and I don't. This is not an egotistical thing at all. I don't put myself on a pedestal that you won't have understood it just I just want to interject.
Speaker 2:So I used your app for six weeks. We did um one podcast about three hours. We had some chats about one hour, two or three times one hour, and now I got one fundamental point that you're pointing out since the beginning, so that's important to understand. So I spent with your work like weeks and months since the past year. So, and right now something makes click and it begins to make stick, so that's awesome. It's important to understand that. People say, okay, it's 60 minutes, I don't get the point, okay.
Speaker 1:And I know we keep going on.
Speaker 1:But the reason I understand this happens is not so much that people lack the intelligence or even the understanding that I'm sharing.
Speaker 1:What it is is that they already have embedded in them so much conditioning, so many ideas that are actually preventing them from hearing something outside of those boxes, and so it takes a while for what I'm saying to break down the ideas that people tend to automatically be entrapped in without even realizing. And and as those ideas break down, then what I'm saying which is not my knowledge, it is something straight out of the, this body, straight out of nature. So it's coming back to something that, inherently, we all know deep down inside, um, and, but the stuff on the surface, our thinking and our ideas, prevents us from hearing me when I say that, yeah, so when I communicate such things, um, so it will sound challenging, but it's only challenging not to the individual, actually, but to the ideas that are in the way of the individual, um receiving the very fundamental stuff that I'm talking about. But, um, that's just well, that's what I've seen and I think it's right. So I suppose we should do this meditation or we're not going to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's jump into it. You want to you ready.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right, absolutely. And so, with everybody who's still here and still listening, you are not in any way trying to achieve a different state to the one you're in, and the state that you are in is known to you as the sensation of your own body. What you may be thinking about is also not that relevant. Thoughts are just mechanical things, not even truly a part of you, but their effects in you becomes part of your tension, part of your states, and those tensions and those states are making up a part of how it feels to be you in the body. So you don't need to concentrate, you can just let any thinking go on in the background and notice more the physical feeling of being you. It'll take just a while for how you already are throughout your body to become known to you experientially. Give yourself time to activate. Just by sitting physically still, you begin to notice your primary physical existence as the felt sensation of the flesh of you.
Speaker 1:There are all different sensations in different areas of the body. In different areas of the body. Each of these sensations are significant in their own right. At first they may seem quite subtle, insignificant, but as you sit still for longer, the differences of tensions and sensations from one area of you to another will become more apparent. This meditation is the natural meditation that the body does all the time. This is how the body resolves and repairs the effects of life on an ongoing basis. All these sensations that you take for granted are all something processing within you. Each of these processes are the body healing itself of the effects of your day, or the effects of your day or the effects of your past. You don't need to think about these things. You don't need to think about your sadness, about your depression. You don't need to think about any of your disturbances. This is not the natural way in which these heal thinking about them. You just feel them wherever they feel the strongest in your body and let the body take care of these sensations and disturbances and states at their origin as a sensation somewhere in your body. This is how any and all mental distress or illness is resolved To feel its presence wherever it happens to be, as a physical stress or sensation in your body and nothing more. Your body will heal itself if you just let it.
Speaker 1:Don't have any concern for the content of your thinking and don't have any concern for achieving something from this. You are not improving or achieving anything, anything. You are simply coming back into your own sense of yourself in the only time you can, in your own lived experience. Right now, don't try to change anything, just feel whatever you can feel within the flesh of your body today and right now. The activity of change, which is the healing process of the body, is activated by simply feeling into. Feeling is how you activate your own healing. Feeling the pain feeling, contentment feeling, however you do, wherever you feel it in your body and your body will take care of it naturally. All you have to do is feel it. Okay, so this is very natural. This is not something induced. I have simply helped bring you back into how you already are and in time you will. If you continue with this approach, you will find you will go deeper into this and it will continue to naturally develop and awaken within you your capacity to deeply feel into being you. Okay.
Speaker 2:So, thank you so much. I think we'll end on this one and yeah, thank you, Enjoy your day you too. Thank you much.
Speaker 1:I think we'll end on this one and yeah, thank you. Enjoy your day, you too. Thank you, tim. Okay, bye-bye.
